The major flaw in Toastmasters clubs
Today I was supposed to attend my second day at the local toastmasters club at 8 AM, but I didn’t go. In fact, I quit!
I know what you’re probably thinking: my first time experience proved scary so I chickened out this time. Nice try, but not me. You guys know I love public speaking and I even gave out my first ever public speech recently.
So why did I quit?
Well, simply put, there’s a major flaw in toastmasters clubs. A one I came to find out about in the first hour of my first visit to the local toastmasters club. Maybe it was amplified in the club I tried, but I believe many more clubs suffer from the same flaw because it’s in the very nature of a toastmasters clubs’ educational process.
So what’s the flaw?
Well,
You can’t teach something if you’re incompetent!
Check this out:
Two weeks ago in my first visit to the club, along with a close friend of mine, we were first introduced to the club’s president and the vice president. They were both very nice people. In fact, most of the members seemed to be very welcoming and we were very optimistic and eager to join the club.
So the meeting started with their usual weird-at-first-time rituals. Then came the prepared speeches part in which it was president’s turn that week to give out a prepared speech. The subject had something to do with internet protocols. However, that’s all I could gather from his speech. It was all downhill from there!
I literally couldn’t believe the way he was giving the speech. It was like he read up on everything wrong you can do when giving a speech, and decided to do them all, with no exception!
For example:
- His back faced us instead of his face most of the time.
- And that’s because he was reading computer-jargon-filled bullet points one by one off his slides.
- Speaking of slides, do we still call them slides when they’re more like crammed textbook pages?
Those are just few of the unbelievable things the "president" did in order to not convey any meaningful piece of information from his speech.
Round of applause everyone, for the club president!
You’ll have to forgive my sarcastic tone in this post, but if the president was this "good", I thought: "I’m bound to learn something every other week watching him and just doing the opposite!".
The fact of the matter is, it wasn’t only the president. As the meeting progressed, I discovered that practically everybody in the club was a beginner. There’s nothing wrong with that. Well, that’s until beginners try to teach each other something, then we kind of run into a deadlock situation where there’s very little (if any) progress made.
Furthermore, any possible progress is further hampered by the fact that we have to be "supportive" to fellow toastmasters. The idea of being supportive, in my opinion, was misunderstood. Yes, we are not supposed to laugh in your face when you mistakenly pronounce "peanuts" something else, but we also should be very critical of everything else wrong you do in your speech, and spit that out (nicely) when doing the evaluation. That wasn’t the case with this local club.
Conclusion
A Toastmasters club is a "learn-by-doing" workshop. Nothing is wrong with that. But don’t you think this model is really flawed when you have nobody from within the club to learn from or even imitate?
That’s why I quit my local toastmasters club. It was just not worth waking up every weekend Friday 8 AM and paying those once and bi-weekly fees and putting down the preparation effort. The progress I’m going to make is sure going to be very minimal. It’s just not worth it.
Maybe a different club is the solution. But for now, so long toastmasters!
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Comments
June 30th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Toastmasters is actually a great organization and very effective public speaking development program… *IF* you’re with the right people. The first meeting I attended of the Toastmasters club I attended for several years featured some speakers who I was very impressed with. It also had speakers who were very clearly beginners.
I would encourage you to find someone who knows the various clubs of your region and can point you in the direction of one that will offer you what you’re looking for. Don’t necessarily ask the regional president. Find people who have won multiple area Toastmasters speech contests and ask them. Those are often the folks who have a real commitment and belief in the organization and therefore also will probably have a good feel for which clubs have some more advanced speakers who would make good mentors.
Good luck!
June 30th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Interesting!
I’ve heard about Toastmasters but never actually attended any. My gut has always told me that I’ll get better through lots and lots of practice. It’s paid off, since now I do speak with groups and get paid for it (something I wasn’t expecting).
I can really tell how I’m doing by:
1. How nervous I am. This usually determines how well I prepared and whether or not I’m connecting with the folks.
2. The audience reaction. Here’s a quicky… how many people traded business cards with you at the end of your engagement? It’s a great indicator.
Regards,
Doug
July 1st, 2007 at 12:42 pm
@Adam Brault:
You’re absolutely right. Unfortunately for me, the other clubs in my region are either corporate or school clubs. This was the only one open for everybody. Maybe I’ll think about joining Toastmasters when I relocate to another city or country.
@Douglas Karr:
For now I’m going with your way, practice and practice some more. Problem is, I still don’t get a lot of speaking gigs (which is obvious given my age). However, with time, I’ll try to push myself to do volunteer speaking gigs and through that I’ll be able to observe and improve what I’m doing wrong, like for example my freakishly fast paced talk. Gotta slow down a little!
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:34 am
I went there too but I did not have the patience to stay till the end. Actually it was a miserable day and I wont try it againe !!
July 4th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
I actually was in toastmasters for quite a long time (about 3 years) back in my dot-com days. I’m thinking about auditioning a few of the local groups to get back in the groove, as the right club can be very helpful both in improving speaking skills and in networking. However, experiences can and do vary wildly from club to club, and I think a lot of it depends on how organized the leadership structure above the club is in your area. Back when I was in TM, we had a few veterans (usually retired business owners with time on their hands) who took it on themselves to be members of multiple clubs and mentor promising newbies. Also, you have to get used to all of the parliamentary folderol, and learn how to nicely criticize some truly heinous speakers. Good luck…
July 4th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Hey Al,
I agree with you that it’s hard to learn from someone who is less experienced than yourself.
Couple things to consider…
1. In Toastmasters the president is by no means the best speaker. They usually encourage new members to take club roles like that, and they switch every 6 months. In my club, some of the most advanced speakers hold lower positions or no position at all because they’ve done all of them over the years.
2. Even if others in the club aren’t experts, there are probably some that are more advanced than you. Focus your learning on those members, and teach those less advanced that you because…
3. Teaching someone else has been shown to be the best way to learn. Often times we know what we SHOULD be doing, but its not until we start teaching it to others that it really becomes ingrained in us and we can really improve the basics. Understanding for yourself is one level, and understanding well enough to teach someone is an entire level above it.
4. I’ve seen quality of speeches vary a lot across clubs. In one club I went to, I was the best speaker, in another almost everyone there spoke professionally for a living. Try going to area and division contests and you will start to get around some great speakers!
5. Would it be better to learn from a pro? Most likely yes. But for those who can’t afford private lessons or more expensive training programs, Toastmasters is a great alternative (usually less than $100 per year). It’s certainly far better than not practicing at all.
Anyway, I understand your frustration. As a more advanced speaker you may have felt out of place at that club. As long as you get stage time, you can improve on your own just by watching videos of great speakers and comparing them to recordings of your own speeches.
Brian
July 6th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Hey @Brian,
I just wanted to thank you for your thorough correction of some of the misconceptions I had, especially about the president being the best speaker within the club.
Your points are completely valid and now I wish that I had little more patience to stick around. You’re absolutely right on the fact that teaching sometimes can aid learning even if you’re not learning much from everybody else.
I will take your points in consideration when joining the next club in my region. Thanks again!
July 7th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Hi Alaa,
I suggest to join our Nesma Toastmaster Club, I think it is the best club in Jeddah. I’m sure that you you’ll be happy there :) ..
July 8th, 2007 at 4:31 am
Hi Al,
This is a very interesting article. It really struck a cord with me. In fact, I have started a blog to help with this very thing.
I have been in Toastmasters about 3 years. I really got into the “public speaking thing.” In fact, I changed careers in order to better learn presentation skills. I became a trainer. That has been an education in-and-of-itself.
Here are some Toastmasters secrets.
- Many club members are not in it to become better speakers.
- Education award levels are not indicative of speaking performance. My friend Alan and I think that the many of the best speakers get their CTM (now CC) and leave. They use their skills in the real world.
- The officers aren’t necessarily the best speakers.
- Many club members simply want to be comfortable (I think that is a huge mistake, you should never be too comfortable).
- Toastmasters will not make you a better speaker. You have to do that yourself.
Last but not least, the biggest secret.
- When you join a club, you are renting an audience. It is a great place to try out new techniques and learn new skills (like not speaking to the slides). I have contemplated quiting a few times and this is what keeps me in.
Brian had some great points. I am big on watching videos. I have a link to a really good one on my blog. There are more great videos to come.
If you are a better speaker than everyone in the club you could help them out by joining and becoming a role model. Keep in mind, one meeting is not enough time to really judge the skill level of the club. If you are still interested perhaps you should try other clubs.
I am working on an article on how to choose a club. You may want to check that out when it becomes available.
Later,
Jeff
http://www.mosttoast.com
July 10th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
@Jeff:
Wow thanks alot! I think TM newbies have to realize these facts before joining their first TM club because there could be many misconceptions surrounding Toastmaster clubs that must be cleared first and foremost.
MostToast is great place to start. I’ll be following that blog until I join my next (hopefully better) TM club. Thanks and keep it up!
July 12th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Hi Al.
Just had to respond to your article on TM. I’m a 6 year member, and probably a lifer. I’m one of those who thinks that EVERYONE should be in Toastmasters.
It’s too bad that your first TM experience was sour. TM has so much to offer. The previous responses uncovered some of the opportunities, but only the tip of the iceberg. My experience has been that the more involved you get with Toastmasters, the more you stand to gain. I’ve been through the key club chairs, an Area Governor, a Division Governor, and now a District Secretary. Every new role I have taken on has presented significant new opportunities for personal improvement and growth.
Along this path, one of the things that you ran into had become painfully clear to me. Not all Toastmasters are created equal. And, furthermore, not all will ever achieve communication excellence. BUT – each of them will benefit by the program and YOU can learn something from every one of them. TM is a self-paced learning program, and it’s literally up to you what you choose to absorb from the other participants.
Just one example – about 18 months ago I was involved with initiating a new club. Hardly any of the participants had any Toastmasters experience, or any experience with public speaking. But, one meeting that we had hosted a member from another club who was clearly one of the best speakers in the entire district (2500 members). He came to our venue to practice the speech that he would be presenting at the District Speech contest a few weeks away. He was practicing his speech at several of the local clubs in preparation for the big day. The meeting plan was that he would present his speech and then receive feedback from any participant who had ideas for improvement. This group of newbies really gave him an earful. Now, some of the suggestions were off the wall, and he was wise to ignore them after thanking the provider. But many of the suggestions were really very valuable. Based on these, and other suggestions from other clubs, he was able to significantly refine his presentation and ended up winning the district contest.
Just one other thought – Toastmasters knows that some members will need more challenge, better role models, and stiffer feedback than others. So we have the idea of an advanced club where you can go for that level of activity. My district has three such clubs. But – it’s interesting to note that, as far as I know, ALL the members of each of these clubs also belong to and regularly participate in another regular club as well.
Hope this helps.
Norm
July 29th, 2007 at 2:11 am
Hi Al,
You did hit on a good point - not every Toastmaster is experienced enough to teach others. However, Toastmasters is not in the business of teaching public speaking, but rather creating a positive and supportive environment in which you can PRACTICE your skills. Obviously, some people still need a LOT more practice!
It seems you stumbled into a somewhat dysfunctional club, one where all feedback is a “whitewash”. Everyone is nice, sometimes to the point it becomes a flaw. The evaluation (that immediate feedback that contributes to learning and personal growth) comes out something like: “That was fantastic! Best job you’ve ever done; I couldn’t find ANYTHING wrong with it! I can’t tell you how to improve. I am looking forward to your next (disaster) speech.” In this situation, the speaker will never have a chance to develop. Moreover, the speaker thinks he/she is developing because of all the great feedback!
Keep in mind that there are over 11,000 Toastmasters clubs in 92 countries around the world - and no two are alike. Each has its own personality, culture and flaws. So, as others have suggested herein, visit several clubs to find one that suits you.
Some of our best speakers have stopped advancing in the ranks, sticking with the Competent Toastmaster level, or CTM (now CC, Competent Communicator). Some of them are professional speakers who don’t want to spend time learning the leadership track of Toastmasters. And some of our worst have managed to make it through the entire process to DTM, Distinguished Toastmaster. It is the latter group that is always distressing because they are the public face of Toastmasters to many.
See if there are any advanced clubs or speakers bureaus in your area. That is the setting in which you are most likely to find the environment to match your level of skill. That is the environment where feedback is honest and open, with your best interests (not necessarily your most tender feelings) are at heart.
Whatever you do, don’t quit speaking! Keep practicing and polishing - and get real, honest feedback to help you continue improving.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:04 am
@Gregg:
Thanks a lot for the encouragement. I think I now fully understand what was the intended purpose of the TM club. God bless blogs for making it easy for us to reach this kind of intelligent audience who’d provide us with valuable insights!
Thanks again :)
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:39 am
Hi Al,
The other day I found myself thinking about this posting. Did you find a club?
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 am
Hi Jeff, welcome back.
Well unfortunately not yet. I’ve been quite busy ever since with getting some certificate. However, right now I have some free time and would love to find me another decent club.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:04 am
It’s unfortunate that your experience with the Toastmaster Club you visited did not meet your expectations. The wonderful thing about each Club is that it’s never the same at any two meetings. Some times you’ll be blown away at the quality of speeches and evaluations. Other times you’ll see that YOU will have a lot to contribute to the Club. Give it another shot or visit another of the 10,000 clubs worldwide. Stop by http://www.bestdivision.org for plenty of information and I’d love to hear about your next experience.